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	<title>Comments for Brighter Flames Arrayed</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?feed=comments-rss2" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog</link>
	<description>teaching, technology, traditional dancing and singing, and bacon</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 04:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Why Homework Isn&#8217;t Fair by cme</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=244&cpage=1#comment-18412</link>
		<dc:creator>cme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=244#comment-18412</guid>
		<description>I think your analysis is interesting and mostly accurate but it's missing one big thing that makes homework make more sense in terms of the wider culture of American work: Employers routinely game the system.

For instance, when I worked retail, we were paid for only the hours that we were at work &lt;em&gt;while the store was open&lt;/em&gt;.  We were also required to open or close, and we were not paid for that time.  This was, we were informed, an incentive to not stick around- if they paid us for that time it would encourage us to lollygag and waste the company's money.  While your line cook is not expected to peel potatoes at home, I believe food service employees are also routinely not paid for time the business isn't open (while being expected to tidy up before and after hours).  And of course there's the issue of the way waitstaff/buspeople/etc are paid, which is not directly related but I think partakes of a related mindset.  

Managers, too, are expected to put in many unpaid hours- especially service-industry managers.  They are routinely responsible for more work than can be accomplished in the hours for which they are allowed to be paid- which means doing accounting and metrics and so on during unpaid time.  White-collar managers usually need to do some of this too (though in a good job they only have to do it sometimes, instead of it being a baseline requirement).

And then there's the whole theory of "exempt" employees, which all white collar/higher status jobs are, where you get paid a set rate for how ever many hours the company/company culture demands of you.  Need I say more?

As far as I can tell, the only employed people who escape routine unpaid work are union members- and the rest of employed population hates and is jealous of them for reasons that seem to have a lot to do with the fact that they are more fairly compensated.

All of that said, I agree with your take on homework.  Thanks for writing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your analysis is interesting and mostly accurate but it&#8217;s missing one big thing that makes homework make more sense in terms of the wider culture of American work: Employers routinely game the system.</p>
<p>For instance, when I worked retail, we were paid for only the hours that we were at work <em>while the store was open</em>.  We were also required to open or close, and we were not paid for that time.  This was, we were informed, an incentive to not stick around- if they paid us for that time it would encourage us to lollygag and waste the company&#8217;s money.  While your line cook is not expected to peel potatoes at home, I believe food service employees are also routinely not paid for time the business isn&#8217;t open (while being expected to tidy up before and after hours).  And of course there&#8217;s the issue of the way waitstaff/buspeople/etc are paid, which is not directly related but I think partakes of a related mindset.  </p>
<p>Managers, too, are expected to put in many unpaid hours- especially service-industry managers.  They are routinely responsible for more work than can be accomplished in the hours for which they are allowed to be paid- which means doing accounting and metrics and so on during unpaid time.  White-collar managers usually need to do some of this too (though in a good job they only have to do it sometimes, instead of it being a baseline requirement).</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s the whole theory of &#8220;exempt&#8221; employees, which all white collar/higher status jobs are, where you get paid a set rate for how ever many hours the company/company culture demands of you.  Need I say more?</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, the only employed people who escape routine unpaid work are union members- and the rest of employed population hates and is jealous of them for reasons that seem to have a lot to do with the fact that they are more fairly compensated.</p>
<p>All of that said, I agree with your take on homework.  Thanks for writing this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on At Least They Come in Pink Now by Bitsy</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=241&cpage=1#comment-16738</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 13:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=241#comment-16738</guid>
		<description>As I said to other people on this topic, yes, my TI-89 doesn't have flashy graphics, but it does calculus and matrix algebra for me (both of which I am very bad at) on four AAA batteries, which under my heavy use last for a semester on one charge.  I only very rarely have any need of pulling out the big guns (Mathematica), as my calculator does most things I need more efficiently and more conveniently.  On four AAA batteries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said to other people on this topic, yes, my TI-89 doesn&#8217;t have flashy graphics, but it does calculus and matrix algebra for me (both of which I am very bad at) on four AAA batteries, which under my heavy use last for a semester on one charge.  I only very rarely have any need of pulling out the big guns (Mathematica), as my calculator does most things I need more efficiently and more conveniently.  On four AAA batteries.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Homework Isn&#8217;t Fair by Wing</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=244&cpage=1#comment-15707</link>
		<dc:creator>Wing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=244#comment-15707</guid>
		<description>I'm in a situation where the teachers are attending classes for a normal-school-day amount of time. I'd imagine that homework for a shorter workshop/class (and homework for college classes, which have shorter meeting times) makes more sense.

School days are usually still 6 to 7 hours. I guess there are several questions here. One is whether we do in fact want kids to "work" as much as adults. Is asking a teenager to focus for 8 hours reasonable? Should we just extend the school day and have students do that work where they can obtain help more easily? (That is a tough tough tough question.) I'm more disturbed by us asking students to take work home than students working too many hours. Another is what really is the nature of the "work" that students do in schools. If learning is the "product" do they really need a heavily guided worksheet to learn? What about social/other skills that they can learn in the time between school ends and before the family unit gets together? Should we not consider the time between 3 to 5 time for that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in a situation where the teachers are attending classes for a normal-school-day amount of time. I&#8217;d imagine that homework for a shorter workshop/class (and homework for college classes, which have shorter meeting times) makes more sense.</p>
<p>School days are usually still 6 to 7 hours. I guess there are several questions here. One is whether we do in fact want kids to &#8220;work&#8221; as much as adults. Is asking a teenager to focus for 8 hours reasonable? Should we just extend the school day and have students do that work where they can obtain help more easily? (That is a tough tough tough question.) I&#8217;m more disturbed by us asking students to take work home than students working too many hours. Another is what really is the nature of the &#8220;work&#8221; that students do in schools. If learning is the &#8220;product&#8221; do they really need a heavily guided worksheet to learn? What about social/other skills that they can learn in the time between school ends and before the family unit gets together? Should we not consider the time between 3 to 5 time for that?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Homework Isn&#8217;t Fair by Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=244&cpage=1#comment-15705</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=244#comment-15705</guid>
		<description>Huh.

(1) I teach classes for high- and middle-school teachers in a Masters of Arts for Math Teachers (MAMT) program.  At least in that setting, they expect homework, and they only complain if they think I'm giving too much.  (But they're very reasonable in this.)  I suspect that they view professional development classes, which are part of their job, very differently, although I don't really know why.  Being in the MAMT program is also part of their "job" since they need a Masters degree in order to complete their professional teaching license.  Maybe since PD programs are often done during their normal work hours and their Masters classes are after work they mentally classify them differently.  Or maybe they just "feel" different?  But in any case it's not so simple as, "teachers don't like to do homework."

(2) Has the length of a typical school day changed since I was in high school?  Mine went from 8am to 2pm, so 6 hours of official school (not including any clubs afterschool). If that's a typical school day then expecting 2 or so hours of homework wouldn't too out-of-wack from a normal working day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh.</p>
<p>(1) I teach classes for high- and middle-school teachers in a Masters of Arts for Math Teachers (MAMT) program.  At least in that setting, they expect homework, and they only complain if they think I&#8217;m giving too much.  (But they&#8217;re very reasonable in this.)  I suspect that they view professional development classes, which are part of their job, very differently, although I don&#8217;t really know why.  Being in the MAMT program is also part of their &#8220;job&#8221; since they need a Masters degree in order to complete their professional teaching license.  Maybe since PD programs are often done during their normal work hours and their Masters classes are after work they mentally classify them differently.  Or maybe they just &#8220;feel&#8221; different?  But in any case it&#8217;s not so simple as, &#8220;teachers don&#8217;t like to do homework.&#8221;</p>
<p>(2) Has the length of a typical school day changed since I was in high school?  Mine went from 8am to 2pm, so 6 hours of official school (not including any clubs afterschool). If that&#8217;s a typical school day then expecting 2 or so hours of homework wouldn&#8217;t too out-of-wack from a normal working day.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Ladies Chained by Wing</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21&cpage=1#comment-15668</link>
		<dc:creator>Wing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21#comment-15668</guid>
		<description>I uploaded the list of all the resources I know of &lt;a href="http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?page_id=238" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Larry, I don't think there's anything significantly new/revolutionary since your web site was posted. Contra-related things (though not new) appeared in Harkleroad's book and I wrote an expository paper for the Journal of Math and Art that pulled in most of the existing stuff and some minor extensions, but that's all I know of right now. Some math/music folks I've talked to and the major caller list that my friend Amy Cann contacted when we did research for a math/contra class didn't know anything beyond what was on your and Dr. Blowers' pages as of 2008 or so. I've heard from some MIT squares people about some unpublished papers on square dancing and math but none of that stuff seem to be very new.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I uploaded the list of all the resources I know of <a href="http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?page_id=238" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Larry, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything significantly new/revolutionary since your web site was posted. Contra-related things (though not new) appeared in Harkleroad&#8217;s book and I wrote an expository paper for the Journal of Math and Art that pulled in most of the existing stuff and some minor extensions, but that&#8217;s all I know of right now. Some math/music folks I&#8217;ve talked to and the major caller list that my friend Amy Cann contacted when we did research for a math/contra class didn&#8217;t know anything beyond what was on your and Dr. Blowers&#8217; pages as of 2008 or so. I&#8217;ve heard from some MIT squares people about some unpublished papers on square dancing and math but none of that stuff seem to be very new.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Ladies Chained by Larry Copes</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21&cpage=1#comment-15442</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Copes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 03:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21#comment-15442</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the complement, Essie. I'd be interested in anything else being done in math and contra dance--I'll link to it from my site. So please let me know details, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the complement, Essie. I&#8217;d be interested in anything else being done in math and contra dance&#8211;I&#8217;ll link to it from my site. So please let me know details, too.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Ladies Chained by Wing</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21&cpage=1#comment-13820</link>
		<dc:creator>Wing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21#comment-13820</guid>
		<description>Essie, there's a pile of other resources out there (though not a big pile). I've heard of a group in South Carolina doing some contra/math education research but hasn't really published anything of significance. I've done a few things in my classroom but it may not be helpful because my classes are upper level high school math classes. If you e-mail me (winglmui at gmail) I can give you a little more than I can fit in this reply box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Essie, there&#8217;s a pile of other resources out there (though not a big pile). I&#8217;ve heard of a group in South Carolina doing some contra/math education research but hasn&#8217;t really published anything of significance. I&#8217;ve done a few things in my classroom but it may not be helpful because my classes are upper level high school math classes. If you e-mail me (winglmui at gmail) I can give you a little more than I can fit in this reply box.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Ladies Chained by Essie</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21&cpage=1#comment-13627</link>
		<dc:creator>Essie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=21#comment-13627</guid>
		<description>Hi- Whenever I look for math and contra dancing I find your blog comes up as a top post.  I have found the great site by Larry Copes but was looking for a little more - or even wondering if you had known of any teachers who used contra dancing in their math class.  Thanks!  ~Essie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi- Whenever I look for math and contra dancing I find your blog comes up as a top post.  I have found the great site by Larry Copes but was looking for a little more - or even wondering if you had known of any teachers who used contra dancing in their math class.  Thanks!  ~Essie</p>
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		<title>Comment on Knitted Bacon BLT (with Cabling!) by Wing</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=81&cpage=1#comment-12621</link>
		<dc:creator>Wing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=81#comment-12621</guid>
		<description>@Pro-Portional Designs: Those chopsticks were indeed reused. It's not hard to get bacon grease off utensils with soap and warm water. =)

@Sami: Awesome! That's why I've been getting a surge of traffic!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Pro-Portional Designs: Those chopsticks were indeed reused. It&#8217;s not hard to get bacon grease off utensils with soap and warm water. =)</p>
<p>@Sami: Awesome! That&#8217;s why I&#8217;ve been getting a surge of traffic!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Knitted Bacon BLT (with Cabling!) by Sami</title>
		<link>http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=81&cpage=1#comment-12582</link>
		<dc:creator>Sami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 05:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.winglmui.com/blog/?p=81#comment-12582</guid>
		<description>I found this linked on The Anticraft's Facebook page. I think I love you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this linked on The Anticraft&#8217;s Facebook page. I think I love you.</p>
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